I wrote in English and I got a response in English, so. In the case of the Museum of Science, I think initially they wantedinitially I was anonymous, and then I think they really wanted my name. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Whenever possible, I would go to a regional museum, too. [00:06:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: You've talked about competition a bit; in fact, in a very knowing way. You know, they had the large office. I had developed my eye to the extent that I also realized that all the export wares were crude Kraak wares that they were just, you know, flipping onto the boats to get rid of it. So, I have these big buildings filled with storage, and a few years ago it got out of hand, you know, when it topped over a million square feet of storage. Now, that's where the museum world and my personal life intersected, because of the Worcester Art Museum. I think there are two different pieces of advice, of course. But I did buy things that were interesting. You know, et cetera. CLIFFORD SCHORER: We packed up everything to go down there. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: Where is the Gropius house? I believe it's still the biggest. I think I was a substitute hitter that day, sobecause I think they had somebody else lined up who couldn't make it. "Oh, okay, thisall this 19th-century porcelain. So thoseyou know, those are the moments where I think about all those table arguments about this picture and that picture and [00:28:00]. So, you know, in a sense, there was ajust a moment, and that momentif that hadn't happened, I wouldn't have bought the company. And I tried for one of them, but it wasyou know, it was because it was terribly underestimated, but of course, the marketplace knew how to make it 700 percent of its high estimate. JUDITH RICHARDS: And not buying a lot, but gaining information and confidence, and then, and then it wentthe volume of activity. JUDITH RICHARDS: And what was Ruth's last name? The angels that were inI believe it was The Adoration of Mary of Egypt, or Maryit was Mary of Egypt, The Last Communion of [Saint] Mary of Egypt. [Affirmative.] I'll look it up afterwards. And her father was Wilhelm Wolfgang. So, you know, those are the kinds of things that happen more frequently, which is that one finds a hand in a Carlo Maratti painting, and one then goes and finds that the Albertina has that hand in a sketchbook that is known to have been by [Andrea] Sacchi or Maratti. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Islip, I think. So, you know, you think about the quality of the art, but also the taste choices that one makes at any given moment in the history of the firm. And I remember coming around the corner and seeing something so staggeringly, unbelievably great that I couldn't believe it. I've got some Portuguese examples. For example, I am a big fan of [Giulio Cesare] Procaccini. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, Nazi loot. How did that acquisition come about? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think about a year. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Gallery exhibition, or that take the gallery in ayou know, in the direction that Anthony wants us to steer. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had a lot of books. And my role has come down to the things I'm good at, which is financial management and, you know, making sure that we, I think, take measured aesthetic steps. WebWhen Clifford Schorer, an American art dealer who specialises in Old Masters, realised that he had forgotten to buy a present for a colleague, he had no idea that a chain of I was making a lot of money for three weeks, and I was traveling for three weeks. I mean, Iwell, maybe a little more. I mean, my family on my mother's sideagain, it's interesting. Did that kind ofdid you ever look back for your family there? I remember it was very celebrated. I mean, I'm trying to think. Is this Crespi? Are there other museum committees thatwell, I suppose if you lived in New York, you'd contemplate being part ofbut have there been or are there other opportunities like that you've, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, there would be, CLIFFORD SCHORER: opportunities I think, CLIFFORD SCHORER: yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, 2004 or '05, yes. You know, they're, JUDITH RICHARDS: Are thereare there any particular scholars that have taken this very broad approach to art history who were important to you? [Laughs.]. [00:32:00]. It has a lot of history; it has a lot of business that it's done. I love computer languages. Does it happen that a painting and a drawing will happen to hit the market at the same time? We're not going to determine [laughs]you know, we're not going to insert that Magnasco into the artist's oeuvre or get it out there for the public and change the perception of that artist. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yes. Well, that's because it's a posthumous portrait. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is it just the two of you doing this major part of the work? I don't know how many there were that were unsorted. I would be 16, turning 17 in that year. Yeah, about a year. The family believed the painting was by her. I'm thinking about, you know, acquiring things that add some je ne sais quoi to some exhibition that's coming up, or that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. At some point. So when I went to see Anthony and said, you know, "I would do this if you are available and you want to do it with me," and he said, "Well, ironically enough, they just told me that I'm on gardening leave." I think today the number of collectors and clients is smaller. So we're changingone by one, we're changing the buildings. I'm trying to think what other fairs we've done. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. It didn't matter to me at all. You know, gobe too ambitious with your consignment terms, you know. And they said, "You're out of your mind." JUDITH RICHARDS: You have Pre-Raphaelite paintings? Have youhow do you go abouthow in those early years, how did you go about defining and refining what exactly you were looking for? JUDITH RICHARDS: Including a photograph? CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yes, every day. You know, people with whom I've sort of done business; I've had long conversations. R-O. JUDITH RICHARDS: Can you remember key purchases you made in thosewhat you define as early years? [11] According to Mr. Murray, his family didn't know that the painting was stolen until it was put up for auction at Sotheby's. But I did bring in a decorator. And they had to water it with a watering spray gun. JUDITH RICHARDS: Just to ask a couple of basic general questions. So I had readI forgot which painting it was; it was the [Bernardo] Strozzi. I ran into him at TEFAF. I had probably 65 of them on walls, you know, with these plate holders and, you know, little arrays. And, you know, you can do that, and if it's done aesthetically well, you can show somebody that, you know, you can still have the quality and think about what a bargain it is. And I would go to those. I mean, to me, the Met is visiting. But, no, I mean, it's. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Butyeah, I mean, there are occasionswe did a 5,000 years of portraiture show with an Egyptian Fayum and a Lucien Freud. JUDITH RICHARDS: or show people the works there? And this was an example of something that they made to commemorate the 100-year anniversary, probably around 1744 or so, of the VOC [United East India Company] making entres into China to sell the export goods. You know? JUDITH RICHARDS: Probably there's a few things that happened before that, we haven't touched on. You know, sure, I mean, I could go down a list of 200 people that I've wandered in on and started spouting nonsense, and they tolerate my nonsense, and then they actually engage in a conversation with me. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, it wasn't expected. [Laughs.] And he said, "Do you know what you bought?" CLIFFORD SCHORER: And also, you know, the sort ofthe mere suggestion that the Agnew's family would ever deal in such a thing [laughs], the bristle with which that question was met gave me great comfort that they actually didn't. And I'm saying, "That can't be possible. Like the bestyou know, the very important people in the orbit of the greatest, and very, very good quality; I mean the best quality that there is. JUDITH RICHARDS: So this is a field where you're not cultivating auction catalogues and, CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I mean, that's the field. And, JUDITH RICHARDS: You didn't feel encumbered? I mean, I'm not writing 400-page tomes on, you know, theyou know, the Old Testament series of Rubens. WebClifford Schorer says he loaned Rendall an unspecified amount of money in 2012, and she backed the loan with the painting - which is estimated to be worth as much as $250,000. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were you reading about the subject? It was very much a medallion hang, very old-fashioned. [00:25:59]. That's like a little bit of sleuthing, which I enjoy. I think that that's a big problem, very serious problem in contemporary, you know, and basically where a collector-dealer can make a market for their particular artists by using friends and colleagues to install things in institutions to give them that curatorial imprimatur. My partner and I were going through Plovdiv, and I went to what used to be the Communist Workers' Party headquarters in town, which is now kind of a little makeshift museum. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, most of that's quite simple. The transcript and recording are open for research. It wasn't expected. Antioch. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, why does this woman look like a skeleton? They had wonderful people. Chinese Imperial you didn't often see, you know, in a Paris shop. JUDITH RICHARDS: everything that's going on. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's a very different game. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And, you know, I would never fault any of those folks for their business acumen. 
They would have Saturday gatherings where people would set up folding tables. And the angels that were attending Marythe detail that got me was they had a sunburn, but the straps of their sandals had fallen down, and you could see the outline of the sunburn where their sandal straps were. They have no idea. And I finally saidI said, "Look, how much is it going to cost me, and can I take you to lunch, or, you know, what is it going to take me to get in there?" So I went to Gillette, and they hadthey were looking for a programmer analysta senior programmer analyst. 
JUDITH RICHARDS: So he's the director ofthe managing director, CLIFFORD SCHORER: He's director. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I shouldn't say 5,000; 3,500 years. [Laughs. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you collect books ever? JUDITH RICHARDS: When you werewhen you were talking about Amsterdam and Antwerp, I was thinking about the fact that your mother was originally of Dutch. They just simply said, you know, "No mas." JUDITH RICHARDS: Does Agnew's participate in art fairs? Monday-Friday, excluding Federal holidays, by appointment. So that's always. But I didn't buy it with much of a focus on the painting itself. I was traveling a lot. Webclifford schorer winslow homer. It's the Dutch, rather than the Japanese. I especially, of course, remember the Egyptian things. We just have a little more time today perhaps, if you want to take more time? [00:31:59]. And recently, Milwaukeeso I love Tanya Paul; she's the curator at Milwaukee. You know, it was wonderful. [4] In October 2013, the London Evening Standard reported that Shirley Rountree (Simon Murray's mother and a descendant of Sir Henry Blake) was suing Sotheby's for "return" of the painting. Without having someone who could actually be front and center, running the business, I would not have purchased the company. So that was fun, and I think that the institution now is so much stronger having that collection, because that tells the story of the history and the history of art history. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I did two things at the same time, and you're going to laugh. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That was Sotheby's New York. And, you know, you have this big triangle already. I mean, you know, when I think back to the Guercino that, you know, I find in a little catalogue, and then I do the work, you know, it is very gratifying to have something, especially something like van Dyck, which is, to me, you know, in the pantheon of gods. I'm always the general on my projects. I'm also sendingwherever there is some scholarly interest, I'm sending them out to museums, so that somebody puts a new mind on them, puts a new eyeball on them. JUDITH RICHARDS: because of these paintings? JUDITH RICHARDS: When youin those early years, did you have a goal? So we had a five-yearwe had our five-year sort of anniversary. JUDITH RICHARDS: So now you've kind of put collecting on the back burner. Or did you have friends who also had these interests? Summary: An interview with Clifford Schorer conducted 2018 June 6-7, by Judith Olch Richards, for the Archives of American Art and the Center for the History of Collecting in America at the Frick Art Reference Library of The Frick Collection, at the offices of the Archives of American Art in New York, New York. And, you know, we can cover a lot of ground. WebClifford Schorer says the painting was used as security for a loan and that he is now entitled to it, the Blake family having failed to make a claim in a US court. But, and I went right toI went right to the paintings. You really want something; you offer someone five percent commission, and your costs are 10, you know, and that happens regularly in historic art. All the time. I was like, you know, one after another, really high-quality secondary names. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no. We drove my van, actually. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that similar tois that situation similar to other galleries in London that have once had 40 employees in the field and now are reduced to this kind of more focused business? [Laughs.] [00:24:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: I guess being a donor or being a supporter or being involved in a patron's group of any sort that would put you in contact with other like-minded. JUDITH RICHARDS: Oh. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Johnny Van Haeften. He's making these decisions, which you approve of, JUDITH RICHARDS: and then you're going out, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, yeah. Do we think this is this?" CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. They had a [Hans] Hoffmann of a hare, a painting of a hare, which was, you know, a world-class masterpiece, and they had a Sebastiano Ricci, a big Sebastiano Ricci. [Laughs.] JUDITH RICHARDS: in an understood way to further this. JUDITH RICHARDS: So the only alternativeif the person can be convincedis if you just offer them cash to buy it, and then you have a part of your inventory. So I was going to the library at Harvard and at other places and reading the catalogues for all the Drouot sales and, you know. He also practised printmaking. I don't know exactly how long, but he lived a long time. [1:02:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm not that intelligent. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So by the time I was 20, I started collecting, you know, monochrome from the Song period. It was a very protracted process. So when I finally got a big house in BostonI bought a townhouse and renovated it. And then he had a very complete American collection. There was a stegosaurus that came up from the Badlands in South Dakota that I didn't move on fast enough, and then there was a triceratops that I didn't move on fast enough, but I had a second opportunity when the owner passed away. Yeah. [They laugh. So the logical leap I made, which in hindsight was a very good one for commercial reasons, was Chinese Imperial. CLIFFORD SCHORER: that's fair. It's more like I'll find a print after a painting. [Laughs.] [00:38:02]. And it was an area I didn't know, and you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: But you started out displaying these 300? T here is a painting in this magnificent survey of the American realist Winslow Homer (1836-1910) that is as frightening as anything you will see in a gallery. JUDITH RICHARDS: And he drove a Model T? Taste-making is a very difficult game, and, you know, obviously, we're outgunned by Vogue magazine, all the way down toyou know, Cond Nast Publications to, you know, you name itto Sotheby's. There was another local museum that was in trouble, the Higgins Armory Museum, and they had the second-best arms and armor collection in America, and also an unsung hero. [4] She rejected this offer and the parties initially agreed to continue the sale and resolve the dispute afterwards. And in my new home in BostonI just got a small place to replace my big house because I needed a place to sleep when I'm in Boston. It didn't say exactly, but it was a level. So those were always fun and, again, because a Crespi comes top of mind, there were three Crespis that came up that I was able to buy and reattribute to Crespi, and now they're accepted. But I bought it for the frame. They want to hear what's the number and, you know, "When can you pay me?" So, yes. [00:24:00]. [00:12:00]. You know, military. The first thing I start collecting is Chinese export porcelain, of all things. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So what I did instead was, when I put in on loan to the Museum of Science, I made the Museum of Science call him and invite him to come for the opening. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sobut anyway, I mean, it's. I mean, beyond generous with attributions. We should close the museum tomorrow and give everybody that walks by on the sidewalk $400 and just call it a day, because that's what the budget is. You have to go to the source. I liked dark colors. So, all of my companies are project companies; they only make money if my projects are executed and are successful. So, yes, I mean, I lend. Nevertheless, do you get calls? And I know that the story itself is extremely exciting, because to my knowledge, it's the largest commissionI mean, it's 37 four-meter canvases. JUDITH RICHARDS: How did that happen? His hair was wet; I thought it was a Poseidon statue. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's a loan, yeah, yeah. Your perspective is unusually broad, at least it used to be. 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The business, I 'm saying, `` that ca n't be possible it.
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